Time: Sat Aug 09 11:49:34 1997
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Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 14:27:34 -0700
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From: Paul Andrew Mitchell [address in toolbar]
Subject: Who is Ronn Jackson? [1 of 2]
Unofficial Transcript of Telephone Conversation
between Ronald L. Jackson and John E. Trumane
Monday, March 21, 1994, 1:00 to 1:30 p.m. PST
Pacific Bell: Good afternoon. At the tone, Pacific Standard
Time will be 12:51 and 50 seconds. ... Good afternoon. At the
tone, Pacific Standard Time will be 12:53 and ....
JET: ... turn my recorder on. So, we're now recording a
conversation between Ronald L. Jackson and John E. Trumane at
1:00 p.m. on the 21st of March, 1994, and Ronn, would you please
repeat the permission you gave me. We're asking you for
permission to record this conversation.
RLJ: Yes, you do have my permission, and you're free to quote
anything that I say.
JET: Thank you very much. Well, good ahead, Ronn, and just tell
us your story. We're very interested, in particular, to hear the
details about this decision by Judge Hagen.
RLJ: Ok. Ah. This morning I had some people ... there were
three people who came to visit me, and they had gone to the court
and the court has told them that Judge Hagen did not issue a
decision. Also, they have contacted San Francisco where they
said the 9th Circuit Court did not issue a restraining order or a
gag order on me. And I do have copies of those. My actual
purpose for calling you today, number one, was to see if you have
received your copy.
JET: No, I have not, as of yet.
RLJ: Last Tuesday morning, I mailed 21 copies of a 5-page
restraining order and 1 copy of the minutes of the court to you.
Ah, now, I also received your letter Friday requesting an
affidavit, of which I have made out and signed under the penalty
of perjury and it's also on your way.
JET: Well, thank you very much.
RLJ: Ok. Now, I have determined that no one within the 21
people that I have called ... now you are the 14th person that I
have called today. No one has received any mail from me,
including my wife Alice, for the last 7 days.
JET: When did you mail these copies?
RLJ: Tuesday morning.
JET: Last Tuesday morning ... mailed ... Tuesday ... morning.
RLJ: They would have gone out of here at the latest on
Wednesday.
JET: Tuesday morning. And no one has received any of those
copies.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 1 of 17
RLJ: No one has received any mail from me of any kind from ...
ah ... this institution since last ... ah ... the last piece of
mail that was received was from ... ah ... a week ago today.
JET: Do you have reason to believe that your mail is being
censored and withheld?
RLJ: Not at this time.
JET: OK.
RLJ: However ... ah ... within ... if these copies do not go to
whom I sent them to ...
JET: Mmm Hmm.
RLJ: Ah ... if they're not in their possession within two more
days, why then I will have reason to.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: However they have not in the past ... ah ... to my
knowledge, censored or withheld any of my mail.
JET: I see. Well, that's good news. Given the extraordinary
import of these papers, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody is
stopping your mail. Although, we would have a remedy to litigate
that. But, that's getting ahead of ourselves a little bit here.
RLJ: Well, you know we also have a remedy where I can file a
complaint with the postal people. However ... ah ... whenever
they get involved with government or a State agency ... ah ...
huh ... they're a little reluctant to pursue it.
JET: Ya. Ronn, I went down to the 9th Circuit myself and
attempted to confirm the existence of an appeal, and the counter
clerk there, after spending what seemed like an exorbitant amount
of time, typing away on her keyboard, finally said, "Well, I did
get a call about that yesterday and, no, there is no case. No,
there is no gag order." Thank you very much.
RLJ: Ya.
JET: So, that's what the clerk at the counter of the 9th Circuit
Court of Appeals said. So, at that point, we didn't have
anything else to talk about. So, I left.
RLJ: Ya. Ok.
JET: But, you're confirming now that, that the TRO was issued by
the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco?
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Do you happen to know which judges signed that order?
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 2 of 17
RLJ: Well, not really. There's 54 of them in the 9th Circuit
and I got all of their names, trying to see if I could remember
any of them. However, their names are listed on the original
order, and as soon as I talk to the party who has that in his
possession, I will get their names and I will relay that
information to you.
JET: Oh, thank you very much. It would have been a 3-judge
panel, wouldn't it?
RLJ: Yes. Yes.
JET: Ok. So, we'll be getting that forthwith, then, within a
week or so, do you think?
RLJ: Probably, I should be able to know this evening ... ah ...
who they are and ... ah ... This is just a guess on my part, but
I think one of their names was Stewart.
JET: Stewart?
RLJ: Yes.
JET: S-T-E-W-A-R-T?
RLJ: Ya.
JET: Now, you mentioned a temporary restraining order?
RLJ: Yes, it's ... what it is ... it's a ... uh ... uh ... the
order was issued ... ah ... directing ... the order was worded
so that it included the court in Reno and ... uh ... it was
followed by the case number. And, it was also issued to me. I
mean, it was a joint order against the Court and myself.
JET: We have reports that that order has now been expanded.
Have you heard that?
RLJ: Well, I've heard it, but I have no confirmation of it.
JET: Ok. They wouldn't have served you with that anyway.
RLJ: No, but ... uh ... I understand that ... uh ... they had
to obtain their information from someone and the only someone
that it could be would be me ...
JET: Right, uh huh.
RLJ: because I am the person who contacts and talks with these
people, so ...
JET: Ya.
RLJ: uh ... I have no idea, and to my knowledge, it does not
exist, if it has been extended.
JET: I see. Now, the declaratory judgment, was it? The ... uh
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 3 of 17
... document you've made 21 copies of?
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Is ...
RLJ: No, no. No, no. I made a copy, 21 copies, of the ... the
order from the court, which was made by the judge, by Judge
Hagen. And I made ... uh .. 21 copies. I didn't make 'em;
someone else did ... of the restraining and gag order from the
9th Circuit ... so ...
JET: Ok.
RLJ: you've got documents that are ... uh ... certainly real as
far as I know because I was served one by a Marshall and I was
... uh ... the other came in the mail.
JET: Right.
RLJ: In fact, it came after the service on the gag order.
JET: Oh, it did?
RLJ: Ya, the day after.
JET: No kidding.
RLJ: Ya.
JET: So, you made reference to a 5-page document. Is that Judge
Hagen's declaratory judgement?
RLJ: No, Judge Hagen's ... uh ... declaratory judgment was on
one page.
JET: Oh, that was only one page.
RLJ: Yes, it was, it was ... uh ... minutes from ... uh ... uh
... a hearing in chambers. No attorneys were present.
JET: Minutes of hearing in chambers?
RLJ: Yes. Now,
JET: Ok.
RLJ: There have been two or three of those issued and ... and
there were all one-page decisions.
JET: And that was a one-page decision.
RLJ: Yes, it was, and they have made those four points.
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: I'll be happy to go over each point with you.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 4 of 17
JET: Well, I understand those points pretty well ... The whole
world is on the edges of their seats trying to get confirmation
of this decision. Now, do we wanna refer to Judge Hagen's
decision as a Declaratory Judgment? Is that accurate?
RLJ: Well, it's ... ah ... what I initiated the action under,
was 28 U.S.C. 2201.
JET: 2201. Declaratory Judgments Act.
RLJ: Section ... no ... Section 206.
JET: Section 206.
RLJ: Yes, now, what that is, is, that is a violation of a
contract, and I placed in the wording of the pleading that the
United States government was in violation of contract, the
Constitution.
JET: Ok, would you please repeat that citation for us, for the
record?
RLJ: Ok, good, uh ... it's 28 USC 2201 ...
JET: Right.
RLJ: Section 206.
JET: Subsection 206.
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Ok, violation of contract.
RLJ: Violation of contract, the Constitution. Uh ... that's
what the Constitution is, as I read it. It's a Constitution.
It's a contract from government, stating that they're going to
perform, with the guidelines of the Constitution for me, as an
individual, as a state Citizen.
JET: Gotcha.
RLJ: And ... uh ... they are in violation of that by making
non-positive law, because ...
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: the non-positive law is not in conformity to the
Constitution.
JET: Very good. Now, the 5-page document you made reference to,
that was the restraining order?
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Ok, do you have ... uh ... any indication as to when that
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 5 of 17
TRO would expire, because the "T" stands for "temporary", does it
not?
RLJ: Yes, I understand. But, now, see, there has been a ... as
part of the order ... that, early in the month of April ... and
I, I'm sorry ... but I can't keep that information ... I can't
keep anything here. I send it out as soon as it comes in.
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: I read it, review it. I take the necessary action, and it
goes in the mail.
JET: Right.
RLJ: In fact, your second letter that I sent to you, I had about
ten minutes to make a two page letter and, I mean, I wrote fast
and stuck it in the mail, because it was going out.
JET: Ya!
RLJ: You know, that day. So ...
JET: Uh, hmm ...
RLJ: I wanted to ...
JET: Thank you.
RLJ: I wanted to make sure that it, you know, left. So, ah ...
JET: Thank you very much.
RLJ: Well, ah, hey, anybody that I can help, or anybody that is
in agreement with what I think ... uh ... and my thinking is
based on facts, and I believe every single one of 'em to be true
and correct ... that I will assist or help in any way I can.
JET: Now, I would like to take your deposition right now. This
is a little bit unconventional, because we don't have witnesses.
I do have a gentleman here who's witnessing the production of
this tape.
RLJ: Yep.
JET: Uh, I would like it very much if you would ... uh ...
certify under penalty of perjury, under the laws of the United
States of America, that Judge Hagen did issue a decision, and
what the points were in that decision.
RLJ: Ok, I do so certify under the penalty of perjury of the
laws of the United States of America, that a decision was issued
on case number CV-N-93-401-DWH that: Point number one: the 16th
amendment to the constitution was, and is, invalid. Point number
two: that the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, as originally written
as non-positive law, is only applicable to citizens of the
federal United States, and any implication or inference of its
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 6 of 17
applicability to state Citizens has no basis in fact or law.
Point number three: the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 to be
fraudulent on its face, and to be unconstitutional. Point number
four: Title 26, USC, as it was originally written, to be
applicable only to the federal United States, and any inference
to have no basis in fact or law. That order was issued on 3/4/94
by Judge David Hagen.
JET: 3-4-94.
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Ok, we could end your certification at this point.
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Oh, that's terrific! Thank you very much for your
willingness and ... and truthfulness about telling us that. I'm
sure ...
RLJ: You have one in writing on its way to you also.
JET: Ya, that's great, and we're hoping, of course, that the
Post Office is delivering that, through its normal channels, and
we'll be looking forward to that, of course. But, the fact that
you have certified this statement under penalty of perjury, and
then backed it up with the documentation as well, will make a
very big difference. Down the road a piece, I'm sure we're going
to produce a transcript of this conversation, and send it back to
you, for your authorization. That would be the standard
procedure. Do you anticipate any trouble getting that document
into you and then back out of the prison?
RLJ: If it comes from an attorney, and on the outside of the
envelope addressed ... uh ... and noted in the lower left-hand
corner, that it's privileged legal communication, and the return
address shows as an attorney, why then it'll come in as legal
mail.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: And ... uh ... it has to be opened in my presence. So, in
fact, your last letter, even though it didn't have a return
address, which is in violation of the prison policy ... uh ... it
was marked "legal mail" and they did ... uh ... call me down and
they opened it in my presence.
JET: Let me reiterate those requirements. Ummm ... the lower
left-hand corner of the envelope would have to read "privileged
legal mail" ...
RLJ: Yes.
JET: ... and the return address would have to be an attorney.
RLJ: Yes.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 7 of 17
JET: Ok. Would Paul Young be sufficient?
RLJ: Absolutely.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: Absolutely.
JET: Is he your attorney of record?
RLJ: No. No. Paul is just a person that ... uh ... I am
cooperating with and ... uh ... you know, I talk with him because
of his affiliation with Al Carter.
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: You know, I, other than ... uh ... him ... uh ...
forwarding mail ... they cut off my mail to my wife, and so, I
have to make up an envelope. Of course, they're listening and
they already know I'm doing it.
JET: Umm, hmm.
RLJ: I have to make a envelope addressed to her ...
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: ... and then I stick it in an envelope addressed to you.
JET: I see.
RLJ: Normally, as a rule, they do not ... uh ... censor the
outgoing mail.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: So, but they did cut me off to her. She ... uh ... she has
a copy of everything I've ever done and every received and ... uh
... uh ... I am reluctant to have anybody go there when she's by
herself, only ... it's just a matter of ... uh ... sometimes I
don't know who I'm talking to.
JET: Yes, I understand.
RLJ: I did enjoy your book.
JET: Oh, thank you very much. The Federal Zone.
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Good. I'm glad you have a copy. Would you like another
copy?
RLJ: [laughs] It has to come as in "legal mail". However ...
JET: Ok.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 8 of 17
[end of part 1 of 2]
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