Time: Sat Aug 09 11:49:38 1997
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Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 14:28:00 -0700
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From: Paul Andrew Mitchell [address in toolbar]
Subject: Who is Ronn Jackson? [2 of 2]
[continued from part 1 of 2]
RLJ: Uh. I did ... uh ... I read your book in one night and ...uh ...
JET: In one night!
RLJ: Yes.
JET: You're a fast reader.
RLJ: Well ... uh ... at night when we're locked down here, I
have from 10:30 until 7 o'clock the following morning and ... uh
... that's my most productive time.
JET: That's great. I want to take you back to ... uh ... one
thought we didn't finish. As I recall from your amended
affidavit number 4, you were pleading in pro se. Is that
correct?
RLJ: Ah ... I ... all my pleadings are in pro se.
JET: Does that mean that you did not have an attorney of record?
RLJ: I do not have an attorney of record for this case, because
... uh ... the person that does my legal work is doing something
else with the government and I don't want him involved in this
...
JET: I see.
RLJ: Uh ... because the other, contrary to what you may think,
is much more important to me at this time.
JET: How are you making appearances before Hagen?
RLJ: I am not. I have never been before Hagen.
JET: I see.
RLJ: Uh ... the only ... uh ... everything is done through the
mail, and I have never met or seen Mr. Hagen.
JET: So, you filed that case originally through the mail.
RLJ: Yes.
JET: I see.
RLJ: Mail only.
JET: Now, tell me what's happening at the U.S. Supreme Court on
this case, if anything.
RLJ: Well, the only thing that I am aware of now is that David
Souter is one of the Justices. He is known ... uh ... to my
attorney ... uh ... who's not involved with this case, to have
received a copy of the restraining order and of the minute order
of the court. It's personally delivered to him a ... let's see
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 9 of 17
... ah ... the order was issued on Wednesday [inaudible] and it
was delivered to him on Friday, the following Friday.
JET: Ok. And the minute order is the declaratory judgment?
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Ok. Very good. I just wanna make sure we understand that
clearly.
RLJ: Ya.
JET: So, this is Associate Justice David Souter of the U.S.
Supreme Court, has received copies of the Temporary Restraining
Order issued by the 9th Circuit ...
RLJ: Yes.
JET: ... and the Declaratory Judgment, in the form of a minute
order, by Judge Hagen.
RLJ: Yes.
JET: When ... uh ... did he receive that? Do you have any idea?
RLJ: It would be ... let's see ... the, the order was issued on
Wednesday, which was on the 9th. He received it, I believe,
either Thursday evening or Friday morning.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: That would be on the 10th or 11th. But I can't ... I
don't know that to be .... One of those days, he did receive a
copy of it.
JET: It was served on him in his capacity as an Associate
Justice of the United States Supreme Court?
RLJ: No. No. It was given to him by an attorney who's a friend
of his, who happens to be my attorney, as proof that they were
issued, because this has created some controversy with the
Supreme Court already.
JET: Oh, of, of course. Now, you just made reference to "your
attorney". I thought you said you had no attorney of record?
RLJ: I do not have an attorney of record ...
JET: Ok.
RLJ: ... for case number CV-N-93-401-DWH.
JET: I understand. Has there been any action by any Justice of
the Supreme Court in this matter?
RLJ: No.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 10 of 17
JET: Ok. To your knowledge, then, the 9th Circuit TRO stands?
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: And, it will stand ... uh ... we didn't complete that ...
uh ... I didn't complete that. I'm not sure, but ... uh ... I
believe it's at the beginning of the second week of April that
there has to be, or there will be some action taken at the 9th
Circuit. Now, the ... as I understand how a temporary
restraining order is ... that is issued ... works, if it goes for
a period of approximately 30 days, and then there's a hearing for
a permanent injunction. Is that correct?
JET: I think so. Yes.
RLJ: Ok. Well ... uh ... that ... it will take place, if I
remember ... ah ... when I originally got the order and had the
conversation over it, I remember looking on the calendar, and it
seems like it was Monday or Tuesday in the second week of April.
JET: Monday or Tuesday in second week of April. Ok.
RLJ: Yes. So, I ... uh ... I can't swear by that, but it's
somewhere in the second week of April, I'm sure.
JET: Ronn, do you have a case number at the 9th Circuit?
RLJ: No ... uh ... however, I will get that and obtain that
tonight.
JET: Oh, good!
RLJ: There was one, and I'm so concerned about this order, and
then I was concerned about me having the freedom to even say
anything about it because I figured there would be some kind of
retaliation taken, and if they throw me in the hole here, why
then I'm incommunicado.
JET: Sure, well how do you feel about this conversation, in
light of the TRO? Do you feel like you're violating the TRO?
RLJ: Oh, absolutely.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: Yes, I am absolutely, I'm violating it and I have violated
it at least 30 other times with people all over this United
States.
JET: And you feel you have good cause for doing so?
RLJ: Why?
JET: Ok, what is that cause? Please mention that cause on the
record here.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 11 of 17
RLJ: The government is illegal and unconstitutional, and they
have a dual standard and ... uh ... I happen to believe that the
supreme Law of the Land is the Constitution of the United States
of America, and I will continue to fight a tyrannical government
in any way that I can. And, under the circumstances that I am
under right now, being incarcerated as a convicted felon, the
only thing that I can do is, I can write and I can talk. And I
will continue to do so until I cannot do it any more.
JET: Ronn, would you agree that there is now an overriding
public interest in lifting this gag order?
RLJ: [laughs] Yes!
JET: Ok. I knew you would say yes. I just wanted to make sure,
to give you a chance to say "no". [laughs]
RLJ: No. No. There is ... uh ... definitely an overriding ...
I have interest from many people and ... uh ... I shall pursue
this ... uh ... Government has one of two alternatives: either
to admit that I am right, in all ways and in all stipulations, or
they're gonna have to kill me.
JET: Uh, huh. Well, let's hope that it doesn't come to that. I
don't think it needs to.
RLJ: I don't think it needs to, either. However ... uh ... I, I
started something and I do not intend ... Now, one thing about
this, Johnny, that you are not aware of, you don't of know my
background and you don't know what's going on on the other side
of government. They are related in the breech because ... uh ...
some of my ... uh ... work ... uh ... in my affiliation with
government ... I wanna be sure to word this correctly ... uh ...
was, and can be ... uh ... construed as illegal. However, it was
done under the direction and the assurances that it was in the
interest of the country. It was when I started questioning some
of the things that I did ... uh ... that the difficulty with the
government started.
JET: I understand.
RLJ: And ... uh ... I don't mean to talk in circles. I can be
much more specific ... uh ...
JET: There's no point for you to be specific on this subject at
the moment.
RLJ: Ya. Ya. Alice has a copy of ... I've written 5 books.
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: Ok. Now, one of 'em ... they're all entitled The Death of
Camelot, and they all start in September of ... uh ... '63. And
... uh ... if that gives you an indication of what the very first
subject matter would be.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 12 of 17
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: Ok.
JET: Yes.
RLJ: And my direct personal involvement with that. So ... uh
... the government has a right to be concerned about what I am
saying.
JET: Sure.
RLJ: And ... uh ... I've, I've committed myself to doing
something, and I'm going to carry through with it.
JET: Ronn, I have another question for you. I hate to go back
to the same material we've been discussing, but we're interested
in knowing ... uh ... what you can tell us about the phone call
you got from Judge Hagen and the Marshall who witnessed that. Do
you have a name for that Marshall for us?
RLJ: No, I don't.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: They, they have been here to see me ... uh ... for other
matters, and ...
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: ... some other papers and ... uh ... I've seen this man, I
think he was here once before on an unrelated matter.
JET: You would recognize him if you saw him again?
RLJ: Oh, absolutely.
JET: Can you describe that man to us, just briefly?
RLJ: Ah ... 5-10, 5-11. Brown hair. Ah ... 40.
JET: Approximately 40 years old?
RLJ: 40 ... 42 ... somewhere in that area. ... ah ...
JET: He had credentials?
RLJ: Ah ... when you come on here ... ah ... on this property,
... ah ... the normal procedure is to call you to the
administration area and ... ah ... they have already certified
who he is.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: Now, whether or not the institution will say anything, I
don't know.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 13 of 17
JET: Ok.
RLJ: I am not real close to the administration. [laughs]
JET: I understand. Now, could you tell us more about the phone
call you got from Judge Hagen in the presence of that Marshall?
Approximate time when that happened?
RLJ: Sorry, but you've got those two items confused. What ...
ok ... the Marshall that came here did not bring anything from
Judge Hagen. He served the papers from the 9th Circuit Court of
Appeals in San Francisco.
JET: Oh, I misunderstood your letter then.
RLJ: Yes. Ok. Well, look, I put that letter together in ten
minutes.
JET: Uh, huh. I understand. So, when you were speaking with
Judge Hagen, was there anybody there to witness that
conversation you were having with him?
RLJ: I was just here in the day room.
JET: I see. Can you tell us ... uh ... what he said to you,
briefly summarizing points?
RLJ: Well, let, let me start and give you a real quick capsule
of what happended. First of all, the order was issued on the 4th
of March. On the 7th of March, I received a local number to
call, and, who told me about the order from Judge Hagen was an
attorney in Reno who had received a call from one of his clerks,
one of the clerks of the Court. And ...
JET: Who was that, by the way?
RLJ: I don't know. He refused to identify himself. However, he
did identify himself to the institution, because they're the ones
who told me.
JET: Uh, huh.
RLJ: But, he said ... uh ... "I'm an attorney," and he says,
"I'm letting you know what happened last Friday." And I said,
"Well, I haven't gotten, got the mail yet." And that's how I
first heard about it. Then ... uh ... from Friday to Wednesday,
the following Wednesday ...
JET: What dates would those be, please?
RLJ: Ok. Uh ... Wednesday was the 9th, was the day that the 9th
Circuit Court issued the order.
JET: Right.
RLJ: However, it would had to have been done on the 8th, because
I received, although it could have been faxed to me, but it was
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 14 of 17
not a fax ... I received the order on the 9th. On the 10th, I
received Judge Hagen's order.
JET: In writing?
RLJ: In writing.
JET: Ok.
RLJ: That was the minute order.
JET: Right.
RLJ: On the 10th. Now, those items went out ... uh ... they
were given to someone else, and then they made 21 copies for me.
Now, I sent one to my wife, and then I sent one to you. I sent
one, you know, the other several key people around the United
States.
JET: Yes, I understand. I'd like to get you back to answering
that one specific question.
RLJ: Ok.
JET: Now, can you relate to us the contents of the phone call,
what was said in both directions, if possible?
RLJ: Well, I can give you as much as, as I recall.
JET: That's all we need.
RLJ: Ok, the phone call ... uh ... was from the 9th Circuit, and
that was the 3-judge panel who said ... uh ... that they had
issued this order, and that it was issued to me, and to the
Court, or to the Court first.
JET: Oh, I'm misunderstanding. Did Judge Hagen, then, not call
you?
RLJ: No!
JET: Oh, I understand.
RLJ: No, no.
JET: My mistake. I'm making this mistake here, and you've
finally cleared that up for me.
RLJ: Ok. Well, I didn't think that I had told you that I had
spoke to Hagen. I've never seen him, spoken to him, other than
on an unrelated matter.
JET: Ok, I'm glad we've cleared that up. So, then the one phone
call we're concerned about, then, was the phone call from the 9th
Circuit 3-judge panel.
RLJ: Yes.
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 15 of 17
JET: Ok. Good.
RLJ: Yes.
JET: Well, I think I've covered just about everything I need for
now. We've got a half an hour's worth of conversation here we're
gonna have to transcribe, and the longer this conversation
continues, the more expensive that transcript's going to be. So,
if you don't mind, I'd like to terminate this conversation for
now, so that we can get to work on preparing a professional
version of this crans ... excuse me ... this transcript, and
getting it to you as soon as possible.
RLJ: Ok. Well, and any time you have any questions ... ah ...
or you want me to elaborate on any point ... ah ... the nice
thing about this is that ... ah ... there is not one word of
dishonesty [inaudible] so you don't have to worry about me, not
to be exact as I can be, and ... ah ... I'll sign it.
JET: Well, Mr. Jackson, I want to thank you very much for your
commitment to constitutional law and to restoring the public,
excuse me, the republic [laughs]. That was an interesting slip,
huh? And, we'll be back in touch with you as soon as physically
possible.
RLJ: Ok, and if you need for me to call back, just call my wife.
You have her number.
JET: Very good. Thank you very much.
RLJ: I thank you.
JET: Have a nice day, sir.
RLJ: You too.
JET: Bye, bye.
JET: Ok, we're terminating that conversation, and right now, the
time is 1:30 p.m. on Monday, the 21st of March, 1994. This is
the end of the tape.
[end of transcript]
This transcript was prepared by John E. Trumane within 24 hours
after the conversation was recorded on magnetic tape.
I certify under penalty of perjury, under the laws of the United
States of America, without the "United States", that I prepared
the above transcript and that it is faithful, true and correct,
to the best of my knowledge and ability.
Executed _________________
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 16 of 17
_____________________________________
John E. Trumane, Sui Juris
Trumane Interview of Ronald L. Jackson: page 17 of 17
# # #
[end of part 2 of 2]
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Paul Andrew Mitchell : Counselor at Law, federal witness
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