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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:11:12 -0800
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Paul Andrew Mitchell [address in tool bar]
Subject: SLS: The Waco Incident (fwd)

<snip>
>
>The murders at Waco.  The lid comes off.
>
>It's all here, folks -- the burning, the gassing, the missing
>videotape.  If there is any justice, the lid is about to come off
>this.  If not, well, you'll know what kind of baby killers are running
>the government.  If nothing else, read the moving poem at the end.  If
>you're not in a rage after reading this, there is something wrong.
>Call your Congressional people, call your local media.  If they don't
>wake up, they will be next.  YOU will be next.
>
>
>JH  - Jerry Hughes, host
>DH  - David Hall, KPOC-TV, Ponca City, Oklahoma
>XX  - Caller
>[ ] - Infrequent comments, explanation of references (to other shows
>or
>      guests or office holders]
>
>=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/=/
>"Washington On Trial"
>
>Air date - August 2, 1994
>
>[Opening music: Drum and fife playing "Yankee Doodle"]
>
>JH: And good evening Mr. and Mrs. America, to all our ships at sea.
>>From the     Peoples' Radio Network we welcome you to "Washington On
>Trial".  Good evening, America.  I'm Jerry Hughes.  Thank you for
>allowing us to share this time with you.  Wherever you might be across
>our grand old Republic or anywhere in the world this evening, we
>welcome you to tonight's program.
>    From Texas to Idaho, from California to Maine, we thank those
>great affilliate stations for making it all possible.
>
>    You'll remember, ladies and gentlemen, about a month ago we talked
>with  David Hall.  Mr. Hall is the General Manager of KPOC television
>in Ponca City, Oklahoma, and Mr. Hall and his daughter were guests on
>our program.
>    His daughter Christina [sp?], an investigative reporter doing a
>lot of work in the area of Waco, investigating in the aftermath of the
>Mt. Carmel or the Waco massacre or tragedy, as it has come to be
>called now, for the production of a videotape, a special video, or a
>special program I should say that was going to be shown not only on
>KPOC, but certainly hopefully on many other television stations across
>the nation.  We are honored once again to have Mr. David Hall with us
>this evening for an update on what has been going on and perhaps we'll
>be finding out about the broadcast times or telecast times of that
>program.  Mr. Hall, good evening.
>
>DH: How are you, Jerry?
>
>JH: Real good, sir, and yourself?
>
>DH: Fine.
>
>JH: Fantastic.  I guess it was about the end of June that we last
>talked.  What has happened since then?
>
>DH: Well, of course, we've been busy putting our story together, and
>working on a Senate report that we intend to deliver to the Senate
>Judiciary Committee next week.  Basically we have busy completing that
>and have all of our information developed, and our story is expected
>to be completed by the end of this week.  I heard you mention the
>broadcast date -- that's going to be September 19th.  It'll be a
>two-hour show and I think probably 8:00 Eastern time.  It will air. .
>.of course, hopefully we will have heard something from the Senate by
>that time.  We've been in touch, I have, back and forth, almost daily,
>with different members of Congress and people in Washington that
>basically want to hear the story, and I think that we're going to get
>something done. . . I feel confident with the talks that I've had with
>people in Washington.
>
>JH: All right, now the last we talked, I believe the following day,
>the next day, Christina was supposed to go to the compound, and I
>believe she had a court order, or was hoping to have a court order,
>that would allow her in to look at some -- I want to say some barrels
>or some containers?
>
>DH: That's correct.  We went to Waco, McClellan County Court.  We did
>present evidence that we had that possibly criminal acts had been done
>in the State of Texas by the Justice Department.  We presented that to
>Judge McDonald in McClellan County over the objections of the state
>attorney there and we did prevail.  He certainly gave us entrance to
>the complex there.  We did gather information that we felt was needed.
>We used an arson expert from Oklahoma, and he basically did his
>investigation.  We also took a criminal investigator in with us and
>obtained information.
>    Also at that time we did, as I recall they recovered remains of
>two other bodies, and of course those were turned over to the coroner
>there.
>
>JH: Let me stop you stop you just a minute.  You mean there were still
>the remains of two bodies at the scene, and this is now into the
>beginning of July of this year?
>
>DH: That is true.  There are still bodies, parts of bodies or parts of
>remains still there.  People that were working there, being as we had
>the control of the complex, we still are receiving some of the
>remains.
>
>JH: Let me get this straight.  April 19, 1993, was the fire and the
>end of the Mt. Carmel church.  We were told that all of the bodies and
>all of the remains had been removed and autopsies had been performed
>on most if not all of them shortly thereafter.  Now you're telling me
>that you and/or your daughter and/or a news crew, an investigative
>crew along with an arson detective, entered that compound with a court
>order in July of this year, one year and two months after the fact,
>and there were still unrec overed bodies?
>
>DH: They're not total bodies, Jerry.  They're remains that have been
>burned up, bones, such as that, and pelvic areas.  That basically is
>what we found.  Even as late as two weeks ago, our company -- some of
>the remains were being sent to us -- our criminal investigator has
>taken control of those, and we intend to bury them here in Oklahoma.
>
>JH: Let me ask you to hold just a moment as we take a break.
>
>[BREAK]
>
>JH: Ladies and gentlemen, again we thank you for allowing us to be
>with you this evening.  Conferenced in is David Hall, General Manager
>of KPOC television, Ponca City, Oklahoma, the television station that
>had been doing a good bit of investigative work in the area of Waco.
>On September 19th of this year, they will be airing a two-hour program
>on that.  Mr. Hall has been in touch with numerous members of Congress
>and officials in Washington, DC.  If you are just joining us, we found
>out just before the break that while the Waco tragedy climaxed on
>April 19th of last year, a year and two months later at the beginning
>of July of this year, entering that compound with a court order, an
>investigative team from KPOC along with other individuals accompanying
>them, found at least partial human remains still on scene.  Mr. Hall,
>could you tell, could any of your experts tell, were the remains of
>adults or children?
>
>DH: We think that part of them were children and possibly two adults
>thus far.  That's what we know.  We've had doctors look at what we
>have here and we have the partial remains of a child here, and some
>other, possibly adult bones, here also.
>
>JH: Sir, that's awfully sloppy of the United States government.
>
>DH: Well, it's terrible.  It's horrendous.  Of course the whole thing
>-- we now have a full picture of what happened at Waco.  You know, we
>hired experts to, basically chemists. . .we've had a report from Dr.
>George Ulich [sp?] who's a professor at Price University in Utah.  We
>know exactly what happened to the people today.  I don't know if we
>got into that area before when we talked, about the breakdown of the
>CS gas. . .
>
>JH: To the best of my recollection, in the breakdown of the CS, in the
>propellant agent that was used, in the fire, etc., there was the
>manufacture in kind of a natural response to all these elements, a
>natural manufacture of cyanide gas, is that correct?
>
>DH: That's correct.  These people had much. . .many of them had lethal
>doses of cyanide and others had incapacitating doses of cyanide.  Ten
>parts per million, anything above that is incapacitating.  Two hundred
>parts per million of cyanide is basically dead.  Some of these people
>had well within the realm of being dead.  What is confusing is how
>they have bullet holes in them.  That has bothered pathologists here,
>and two doctors that we've had look at them.  We're not real sure what
>happened there, and we can't make any statements because we don't
>know.
>
>JH: You mentioned a moment ago that you took an arson investigator
>with you.  I know that no doubt you'll be mentioning that on the 19th
>on the program and I don't wish to ask you to divulge anything that
>you would wish to hold until then, but can you give us an
>investigation as to what the arson investigator found out?
>
>DH: Well, we found that. . .we have video that has been furnished to
>us by a station in Texas that we're analyzing, it's the start of it.
>We know for a fact that the fire did not start where Paul Gray, the
>arson investigator that was hired by the ATF, stated that it was.  We
>have that plainly on FBI video and also 35 millimeter shots.  We know
>where the fire started, and we also have, we've determined basically
>that probably. . .it would be totally a guess on my part at this time,
>but in talking with our investigator, we feel like a polytechnic, I
>think, device was used to start that fire.  And it was started it
>three locations.  The fire started before . . .we have some other
>video that shows the fire started before the time frame in which they
>said it was.
>
>JH: Can you tell if the fire was started internally or externally?
>
>DH: We feel. . .well, the fire was certainly started on the inside,
>but not by the Davidians.  Of course that would be totally against
>their religion.  The FBI even states that on videotape.  Bob Ricks
>says that this would bound these people for hell eternal, so they're
>not going to do this, and we know that.  Another interesting thing was
>that we had talked last week to the state fire marshall's office at
>Austin, Texas.  His people had gone out to investigate that fire and
>they turned them away.  I guess at that time they brought Paul Gray in
>who was a former ATF agent.  His wife is presently employed by the
>ATF, so that was the "independent" investigation that the government
>did.  That will also be noted in our report.  Our arson investigator
>totally disagrees with how the fire started and what he states, so I
>think we put his report to rest and started looking for really what
>happened there.  We do now have some officials that are ready to come
>forward that have contacted us in the last two weeks and tell the
>story to the Senate, and we intend to march those people before the
>Senate.  For those reasons we have people that were involved that are
>now ready to talk and tell the truth, and we believe that something is
>going to happen.   I don't think this can be pushed under the rug any
>further.  Also it might be interesting to note that beyond our program
>we've been in touch with other people that also have programs going
>tomorrow night that we have furnished video for and information, and
>those programs will air tomorrow evening on A&E Network and ABC, and
>they're going to be also critical of the government's handling of
>Waco.
>
>JH: We're going to take a break, but when we come back in just a
>minute, you have answered part of the question, but if I might allow
>you to think about it for a couple of minutes. . .in the aftermath,
>here we are a year and a couple of months later, has anyone come
>forward, or did you find anyone who has now admitted after the fact,
>"We really messed up.  We were too strong in what we did or the wrong
>orders were given" . . .anything along that line.
>
>[Break]
>
>JH: We're talking with David Hall, General Manager of KPOC television
>in Ponca City, Oklahoma, and one of his crews from the television
>station has been working on an update on Waco that is going to be
>aired on the 19th of September.  Before the break, the question, has
>in the aftermath -- here we are a little over a year and two months
>later -- has anyone come forward and said, "We really messed up.  We
>were given the wrong orders, we issued the wrong orders, we followed
>the wrong orders, the government was really out to get those folks" --
>anything along that line?
>
>DH: We have two people that have come forward, both officials, and
>both have talked with myself and another investigator and one
>investigator in Washington.  These people have enlightened us very
>much on what happened at Waco, why it happened, and are willing to go
>before the Senate.  At this time I have to keep their names quiet, but
>they certainly intend to go before the Senate and the information that
>they are armed with -- they were participants -- and will, I think
>totally discredit the trial at Waco, Texas, before Judge Walter Smith.
>The attorneys there, the U.S. attorneys as well as the ATF and the
>FBI, they're very much involved, these people were, at high levels.
>
>JH: Can you tell us, without divulging their position or their
>occupation or anything along that line, can you tell us what area of
>conflict there would be between what the government has said and what
>these folks might be indicating?
>
>DH: Well, what they're going to say, I think, basically the
>information they're going to give will be totally shoring up what we
>have said all along, plus other plans that were laid aside that would
>have saved the people and these plans were laid aside with the intent
>of gassing these people.  The interesting thing about this CS gas, in
>our report from Dr. George Ulich, he tells us that 40 cannisters from
>a 40 millimeter gun, or whatever it is they shoot them with into the
>building, would have produced sufficient amount cyanide under the
>conditions to actually incapacitate these people. . .which would have
>been about a quart.  So we know that they used ten to thirty 55-gallon
>drums of this.  Now, I don't know if I made the statement before, but
>the chemical company that manufactures says that never in the history
>of their company has this chemical ever been used or abused in this
>manner, and it is totally not to be used inside a building.  So they
>fortified [testified?] that they knew all these things and they took
>that chance and the kids were not of any concern at the time when they
>did this.  Their intent was to bring this building down and bring this
>thing to an end, regardless of the outcome.
>
>JH: I've just done some quick math here.  You're saying that one quart
>would have been sufficient.  From one 55-gallon drum, of course we
>know there would be 220 quarts.  So we know that somewhere between
>2,200 times and 6,600 times than was necessary was used.
>
>DH: Exactly.  That's the overwhelming thing about the whole thing.
>You know, their S.W.A.T. manual -- we have obtained a copy of it --
>and in it, it tells them not to use this CS gas inside a complex.
>It's totally for riot control out in the open air.  It tells all the
>things that we have stated that could happen if it's used inside, and
>of course all those things did happen.
>
>JH: So what we have is a situation where there could only be three
>options.  One, somebody deliberately chose to go against procedure and
>use a deadly gas inside.  Two, someone was incompetent to make the
>decision.  Three, someone really messed up.  In either instance
>there's negligence, isn't there?
>
>DH: There's negligence, no question about it, and I think it borders
>along the lines of homicide operating under the color of law.  We had
>a vigilante group out there, in my estimation.
>
>JH: Mr. Hall, let me ask you to hold right there, and we'll come back
>in a couple of minutes.
>
>[Break]
>
>JH: If you are just joining us, our guest is David Hall.  Mr. Hall is
>the general manager of KPOC television in Ponca City, Oklahoma, and we
>are talking about the work that KPOC has done in the aftermath of the
>Waco tragedy.  Further investigation, and what the outcome has been,
>and of course they will be telecasting the program on September 19th,
>a two-hour program about that.  Mr. Hall, to the best of my
>recollection, there were quite a few discrepancies that your team had
>found between what really happened, or what the evidence is showing
>happened, and what the federal government had told us all along, or
>the government spokesman, Mr. Ricks or whomever it might have been.
>Would that be accurate?
>
>DH: That's exactly right.  All throught that siege, what we were being
>told I would have to say they were dishonest at the very best, and of
>course going back over it now we find the things that actually did
>happen, and they made every effort in the world to cover that up.
>There also, we feel like, Texas state officials that should certainly
>be indicted over the deaths of these children.  There's no person that
>can tell me these children were guilty of anything.  Did they deserve
>to be shot at, cyanided and burned?  No, I don't think so.  These kids
>were ten years old and under -- seventeen of them out there -- at the
>hands of the government . . .men that knew well, and you asked about
>the three options that they had. . .they had many, many options that
>they could have taken to avert the situation.  The act there was
>deliberate to put this cyanide in there or put this CS gas which
>turned to cyanide and the potency of that would be -- people back east
>and probably some of the areas in the Appalachians would know -- the
>potency of that was like coal dust.  It's compared in Dr. George
>Ulich's report to us as being the potency of coal dust, what it will
>do.  The structure, the way it was ventilated, was an actual act to
>give a backdraft so that you would create a flash fire.  Again, this
>with chemistry was done many, many times in tests of these kinds of
>things to create flash fires, explosions, things like that, and that's
>in the field of kinetics.
>
>JH: All right, the government would treat us as though maybe we just
>fell off a turnip truck on the way into town.  They told us that they
>had nothing to do with the fire.  They told us that the fire was
>started by Branch Davidians on the inside, and yet if we use just a
>little bit of common sense -- just a little bit -- 
>
>DH: That's all it takes.
>
>JH: -- they denied access for about 30 minutes or so, or there was a
>period of about 30 minutes once the fire broke out before the fire
>companies were called, and they did not have any on-scene, in fact had
>cancelled them.  It's my understanding that they had called area
>hospitals, either the morning of or the previous day and had asked
>specifically, "How are you equipped to handle burn victims and how
>many can you handle?".  Now this was before the fire.  If we use a
>little bit of common sense, first question, is that correct.
>Secondly, if we use a little bit of common sense, do they really think
>we're foolish enough to believe that this was started by the Davidians
>or that it was an accident when they did not allow fire trucks, when
>they did not allow someone to be on hand to protect against fire and
>when they called about treatment of fire victims?
>
>DH: The answers to the statement you made are absolutely correct.
>They did call Parkland Memorial Hospital.  We have an interview with
>the supervisor in the burn unit who they talked with that morning and
>she plainly states in our interview with her, which is on videotape,
>that they called her at 5:55 wanting to know about beds available in
>the burn unit and helicopters . . .what size helicopters could land on
>the pad, which is on top of the building.  This was well four or five
>hours before the fire ever started.  Getting to the point where the
>fire trucks come out -- the fire trucks come out thirty minutes into
>the fire like you stated.  They then held the fire trucks thirty
>minutes. . .
>
>JH: And by that time it was too late.
>
>DH: Well, the building had already burned.  But there was a reason for
>that.  The reason being George Ulich, again, our chemistry professor,
>in his report to the Senate, said it was a good idea on the
>government's part.  Had they have shot water on that flaming inferno,
>it would have caused a hydrogen cyanide cloud, a steam cloud, which
>could have drifted over many miles around, and you take three or four
>breaths of it and you're down.  So they knew what they were doing.
>There's no question but they knew what'd happen.  I don't think
>there's any rebuttal to that.  All of the acts that they did on that
>day goes. . .it falls right in line with their own manuals.  So they
>made the thing happen, and made it at best look like an accident,
>which we know today it was not an accident.
>
>JH: All right, I'm going to assume that probably in the course of
>getting the information together for your project, for your
>documentary or your special, that you probably interviewed some Texas
>officials, and maybe U.S. government officials who had a direct role
>in that -- very probably you have confronted them with a good bit of
>the information which you have subsequently found out. . .did they
>come clean or did they still say, "Oh no, we did the right thing, we
>did what had to be done, and we're proud of what we did."?
>
>DH: No, I don't have them telling me that today.  Early on when we
>started, Christina had that, but she knew something was afoul.  At
>that time they were basically going with the same thing, that the
>Davidians had started the fire.  But again, even common sense here,
>they knew what was going on.  They had listening devices, they had
>small cameras inserted into the walls, they knew everything that was
>going on inside the compound.  Many, many times they stated that they
>were using coal oil lanterns in there.  So with those tanks running
>back and forth as battering rams, even if we give them this and say it
>was an accident, they knew exactly what they were doing.  It was
>negligence on their part to go ahead and shoot the CS in, knowing how
>flammable it was, knowing it would create cyanide, knowing they had
>flame in there.  We don't believe that the coal oil lamps started the
>fire.  We think that we have videotape that shows totally different
>than that.  Again, that has been supplied to us by a Texas station.
>
>JH: I read a report, and maybe you can confirm this, we knew that they
>had brought in, the BATF and marshall, the FBI, the federal
>authorities, we know they had brought in the surveillance aircraft
>from England.  I read a report on that particular aircraft that was
>recently declassified, and according to the information I have, not
>only could they pinpoint the whereabouts of the individuals inside
>through infrared, etc., that this aircraft, flying high overhead, had
>a rather unique capability to actually hear what was going on inside.
>Now we also know of course they had implanted into the walls and
>structure some microphones, too, and some cameras, but they used some
>rather sophisticated equipment that heretofore no one has heard
>anything about.  There was some concern that a lot of the things that
>were used were of military make, military manufacture, or of military
>preference, let's say -- in violation of the Posse Comitatus law. We
>know that Ann Richards ["Ma" Richards, Governor of Texas] provided
>some National Guard helicopters.  Originally it's our understanding
>that she was told that there was a drug lab in the church or in the
>complex.  Later of course we found that obviously to be false, and yet
>she never withdrew the hardware.  Have you been able to find out
>anything about the use of military and military equipment?  We heard
>the story that possibly Delta Force people were there.  We've heard
>that possibly individuals from either SEAL teams or Ranger teams were
>there.  A lot of it is rumor perhaps, but let's get into that when we
>come back.
>
>[Break]
>
>JH: David Hall is with us this evening, ladies and gentlemen.  Mr.
>Hall, any information on why members of the military -- we do
>understand, as a matter of fact, please confirm or if you have found
>otherwise, shoot it down -- that there certainly was contact with
>Delta Force members or planning people or possibly even Delta Force
>people on the scene.
> 
>DH: I'm going to tell you -- you had two questions, first the
>airplane.  That airplane I'm not real sure about the capabilities of
>the plane.  I do know that they used that to take infrared pictures,
>which were vital at the trial.  We now have witnesses and people that
>actually witnessed this tape being edited by the U.S. government
>before it was presented to the trial, as well as the audio tapes that
>were used for surveillanced which would be worth noting.
>
>JH: So they did edit the tapes before they presented them.  Now did
>they edit them for brevity, or did they edit them for content?
>
>DH: They edited them for content.  The funny thing was that right
>after the trial, it was discovered that four minutes 40 seconds was
>missing out of that infrared tape.
>
>JH: That's the period of time that the fire started?
>
>DH: Exactly.  And now we can prove that they did this.  We also have a
>signature on a document from Ray Young [sp?] admitting that they had
>lost four minutes 40 seconds of that tape.
>
>JH: Lost, quote unquote or lost deliberately or. . .
>
>DH: Lost quote unquote.
>
>JH: Okay.
>
>DH: How do you lose, you know, four minutes 40 seconds?  It's cut,
>just cut out.  And so that much we know about the plane, and that was
>a British airplane.  Navy SEALS certainly were there, we have firemen
>at TSDC [?] that tell us they were there.  Of course they were there
>all the time.  The intelligence network of several countries was
>there.  I had no understanding why they would be there.  Even our own
>Army intelligence was there.  Of course, the Navy SEALS, there was
>Delta Force people were there.
>
>JH: Isn't that against the law, sir?
>
>DH: It's against the law to use the military in a police action.  We
>know that fifteen military Ft. Hood people were used there.  We know
>that the Abrams tank came from the U.S. military.  That by Major
>O'Rourke [sp?] of Ft. Hood, Texas said that on our tape.
>
>JH: Now the FBI, and the government said their people handled the
>equipment.  Their people were just there as advisors, thereby skirting
>the Posse Comitatus.  Is that true?  Were they there as advisors?
>
>DH: They were there as workers.
>
>JH: They were hands on?
>
>DH: They were hands on.  We have one helicopter pilot we've talked
>with who was active reserve that was reactivated back and assigned to
>Ft. Hood and assigned to that particular job.  So they were involved
>more than the FBI would lead you to believe.  So we have the U.S.
>military in a police action against the citizens of the United States,
>which, to me, violates the Constitution of the United States.  They
>can argue all they want, but I take the Constitution to mean exactly
>what it says, and we don't deviate from that, and I get scared when
>that happens.
>
>JH: Oh, absolutely.
>
>DH: And I think that many, many people around the United States should
>be scared.  When you get the military involved, well, what happens is
>Waco, and if we allow those things to go unheeded, unattended, so to
>speak, without outcry, it's going to happen more and more and more.
>The government has accellerated its attacks against any Christian,
>religious group, whatever it might be.  We've seen that happen over
>the years, back when they started taking prayer out of schools, and
>it's just got worse.  We're to this point now, so it's waking up -- I
>know I've woke up a lot in the last year.  I thought we had a good
>government.  I still say we have a good government, but we've got some
>bad people we have to eradicate and that's my thinking on that.  Also
>there was the CIA, and what their involvement was we don't know.  I
>think that the Congress or Senate -- it's going to take somebody with
>the power of the law behind them.  Honest men to sort this thing out
>and find out why all these people were involved.
>
>JH: Bottom line question for this segment.  From what you have found,
>from the people you have talked with, from the evidence you have
>gathered, from the tapes -- the video tapes and audio tapes you have
>seen and heard -- from no doubt the data you have read and such, can
>you tell me, was it a federal official/field commander, a commander of
>the U.S. military who was on-scene, or the Attorney General of the
>United States who decided to go ahead and call the shot which
>basically ended up killing the kids?
>
>DH: We're still bouncing that around amongst ourselves and among three
>Congressmen as to what knowledge she [Attorney General Janet Reno] had
>of the CS gas.  We know the field commanders belong in jail.  We know
>that.  They knew that -- Saraman [sp?], Royster [sp?], Bob Ricks,
>those people I intend to, if it's within my power, to see those people
>in jail -- Higgins -- we've found now that some of these people that
>they've put off with retirement or with pay have now went back to work
>and are drawing full pay and just sitting around twiddling their
>thumbs.  These people certainly that were put off with pay certainly
>belong in jail, and I believe that Bob Ricks belongs in jail.  I'll
>state that out plainly and some of the ATF there's no question that
>they -- the field commanders -- I don't believe that the man out there
>in the field really realized what he was doing.  I think that they
>went out on a job and probably the ATF in this case at the very first
>was wrong, but it was even worse on day 51 -- that was, to me, they
>have given law enforcement the blackest eye in the history of this
>country, this group of men down there.
>
>JH: Let me ask you to hold it there, sir, as we take a break.
>
>[Break]
>
>JH: Next hour we'll be taking your calls.  Mr. Hall has graciously
>agreed to be with us next hour to answer questions you might have.
>Sir, you mentioned a moment ago that you probably had had a little bit
>of a change of mind about our government.  Let me explore that just a
>little bit more.  We know that every year the United States State
>Department comes out with a list of nations that violate human rights,
>and those are nations that we are not supposed to be full trading
>partners with, or at least we're supposed to do what we can to try to
>correct that.  One of the nations on the list was Mexico, and one of
>the reasons Mexico was on there was because the government sometimes
>is rather severe on its citizens.  Sometimes they will incarcerate
>them without provocation, sometimes they will torture them, and
>sometimes they will kill them.  Were the human rights violations of
>Mexico any different, or the human rights violations of China -- the
>people who were killed in Tienanmen Square, or in the aftermath of
>that, who were executed -- are those human rights violations any
>different than what our government did in Waco in your estimation,
>now, after looking at the evidence?
>
>DH: You know, I'm going to have to say probably not at all.  No
>different at all.  Worse.  We've been brought up different as
>Americans, you know, to stand up for human rights, and these men down
>there were brought up just like you and I were, in God and country,
>and to do those atrocities and . . .you know, while this was going on
>on the 19th, I had to think about this, our president was dedicating a
>monument in Washington, DC to the Holocaust victims at the same time
>he was burning up these people in Waco, Texas, on that very day.  I
>don't know if people were aware of that or not.  But to me, it was
>almost genocide here, and I would call it genocide.  I'm sick to death
>of this type of action by our government.  I wasn't privy to
>information a year ago that I am today, and so I'm taking totally a
>different look at government.  I'm investigating government anywhere I
>see wrongdoing, and I'll bring it out, be it local or state or
>federal.  I feel like we're under a threat from the government.  It's
>got too big, and when they turn on the people that way, it's time for
>the people to act.  I think we have to do that with due process, but I
>think that they've excited enough people where, the circles that I've
>been in in the last six months tells me that there's an army of people
>out there, probably a bigger army of people that are fed up with
>government and these people are armed, and that scares me also.  I
>don't own a gun, but I certainly believe that every citizen has a
>right to own a gun and this almost puts me in a position of believing
>that a person ought to buy one if they don't own one.  Back in 1938,
>Hitler started disarming the people and what we had was was genocide
>and the Holocaust, and we're just seeing history repeat itself, and
>we're just sitting here watching it happen.  We're going down to buy
>our new cars, we're going to the movies, we're going there, going
>here, just letting all these things happen.
>
>[The original assault on the compound was 50 years to the day after
>the Nazis stormed the Jews in the ghettos in the same fashion -- both
>were wearing the black helmets, too.  Some of the Jews had guns and
>took out a few Nazis, which is why the Nazis used the gas and flooded
>the sewers.  The Jews formed a "militia"!]
>
>JH: Not only sir, not only did the president on that same day dedicate
>the Holocaust museum, but almost to the hour 218 years, on the day 51
>of Waco, on that April 19th morning of 1775, some farmers met some
>Redcoats at a bridge near Lexington and Concord, and the action to
>make sure that we would live free, the action to make sure that we
>would in fact be a free and independent Nation with liberty for all of
>us began.  Well. 218 years later, we know what happened.  Stay with us
>ladies and gentlemen.  We'll be back next hour with your calls.
>
>[Break]
>
>JH: Again, ladies and gentlemen, we welcome you to "Washington On
>Trial" from the Peoples' Radio Network.  Hello, America.  I'm Jerry
>Hughes, and thank you for joining us this evening.  Our guest this
>evening ladies and gentlemen is Mr. David Hall.  Mr. Hall is the
>General Manager of KPOC television in Ponca City, Oklahoma, a
>television station that has done a tremendous amount of investigative
>work and has produced a two-hour program on Waco, what really
>happened.  A two-hour program that will be airing on the 19th of
>September.  Our lines are open this evening, toll-free across the
>United States of America at 1-800-TALK-YES, 1-800-825-5937.  When you
>dial that number, you're going to reach our satellite uplink facility
>which is inside the turn-of-the-century Telford Hotel, on the banks of
>the Suwannee River in White Springs, Florida.  Jay Corley, our
>producer, who, as always is doing an excellent job will take your call
>this evening, and he'll make the necessary connection so that we can
>get on the air tonight.  Mr. Hall, are you ready to take some calls
>from folks across the country?
>
>DH: Sure.
>
>JH: Let's go to Orangeburg, South Carolina.  Randy, good evening.
>
>XX: How are you doing, Jerry?
>
>JH: All right, sir, and yourself?
>
>XX: Fine.  I enjoy your show.
>
>JH: Thank you.
>
>XX: Mr. Hall, I want to know what you all heard about Linda Thompson
>lately.
>
>[Linda is planning a "march" on Washington during the second week of
>September.  It is supposed to consist of armed members of the Militia.
>The object is to convince members of Congress that they must uphold
>the Oath they took to protect and defend the Constitution of the
>United States, and to arrest them if they don't.  The group will also
>demand, among other things, repeal of NAFTA, the Brady Law (already
>challenged in several court cases and on its way out), and an
>investigation into Waco.  Although agreeing in principle, most
>populist groups distance themselves from her methods.  They feel an
>armed group will create a bloodbath and increased (and immediate)
>disarming of the populace.
>
>She is also the main force behind the most popular videotapes on Waco.
>Although there are some small errors (the "flamethrowing tank" for
>instance), 99.99% of the facts on the tape are accurate.]
>
>[The "march" was called off, and Linda is pretty much discredited by
>just about everybody.]
>
>DH: I haven't heard anything about Linda Thompson.  I don't really
>know. . . I talked with Linda once or twice.  I don't know Linda very
>well.
>
>XX: I was calling to try to learn. . .I know the network used to say
>the video she had out was pretty good, and it may be.  But I'm afraid
>that this armed march she's calling for on Washington is something
>that's going to get a lot of people in trouble.  I don't think it's
>the right move for the time yet.
>
>JH: Randy, I certainly agree with you.  I'm sure Mr. Hall would agree.
>In fact, I think any sensible American -- and I mean not to slight
>anyone by that, it's my opinion -- but you're absolutely right.  It is
>not the thing to do.  There are a lot of things we could still do,
>hoping and praying that that day will never come.
>
>XX: That's right.
>
>JH: As we mentioned a moment ago, it was 218 years when the Mt. Carmel
>fire began, 218 years previous to that, at about the same time of the
>day, the men at Lexington and Concord, the farmers of America, met the
>British.  The British said, "Give us your guns."  Until that time, no
>one in America had pretty well bothered anybody in the sense of a
>violent fashion.  We have not reached anything near that, and again I
>hope that certainly all good common-sense folks will work within the
>system to change the system, because I still believe that it can be
>done.  Sir, I appreciate your taking the time to call.
>
>XX: I've heard you say that before, and I agree with you, and I just
>wanted people out there that will listen, not to make this move.  It
>is not the time to make this move yet.  The day might come, but I
>don't think as yet.
>
>JH: I agree with you, sir.  Hopefully it will never come, but if it
>

===========================================================================
Paul Andrew Mitchell, Sui Juris      : Counselor at Law, federal witness 01
B.A.: Political Science, UCLA;   M.S.: Public Administration, U.C.Irvine 02
tel:     (520) 320-1514: machine; fax: (520) 320-1256: 24-hour/day-night 03
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website: http://supremelaw.com       : visit the Supreme Law Library now 05
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_____________________________________: Law is authority in written words 09
As agents of the Most High, we came here to establish justice.  We shall 10
not leave, until our mission is accomplished and justice reigns eternal. 11
======================================================================== 12
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