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Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:11:12 -0800
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From: Paul Andrew Mitchell [address in tool bar]
Subject: SLS: The Waco Incident (fwd)

>The murders at Waco.  The lid comes off.
>It's all here, folks -- the burning, the gassing, the missing
>videotape.  If there is any justice, the lid is about to come off
>this.  If not, well, you'll know what kind of baby killers are running
>the government.  If nothing else, read the moving poem at the end.  If
>you're not in a rage after reading this, there is something wrong.
>Call your Congressional people, call your local media.  If they don't
>wake up, they will be next.  YOU will be next.
>JH  - Jerry Hughes, host
>DH  - David Hall, KPOC-TV, Ponca City, Oklahoma
>XX  - Caller
>[ ] - Infrequent comments, explanation of references (to other shows
>      guests or office holders]
>"Washington On Trial"
>Air date - August 2, 1994
>[Opening music: Drum and fife playing "Yankee Doodle"]
>JH: And good evening Mr. and Mrs. America, to all our ships at sea.
>>From the     Peoples' Radio Network we welcome you to "Washington On
>Trial".  Good evening, America.  I'm Jerry Hughes.  Thank you for
>allowing us to share this time with you.  Wherever you might be across
>our grand old Republic or anywhere in the world this evening, we
>welcome you to tonight's program.
>    From Texas to Idaho, from California to Maine, we thank those
>great affilliate stations for making it all possible.
>    You'll remember, ladies and gentlemen, about a month ago we talked
>with  David Hall.  Mr. Hall is the General Manager of KPOC television
>in Ponca City, Oklahoma, and Mr. Hall and his daughter were guests on
>our program.
>    His daughter Christina [sp?], an investigative reporter doing a
>lot of work in the area of Waco, investigating in the aftermath of the
>Mt. Carmel or the Waco massacre or tragedy, as it has come to be
>called now, for the production of a videotape, a special video, or a
>special program I should say that was going to be shown not only on
>KPOC, but certainly hopefully on many other television stations across
>the nation.  We are honored once again to have Mr. David Hall with us
>this evening for an update on what has been going on and perhaps we'll
>be finding out about the broadcast times or telecast times of that
>program.  Mr. Hall, good evening.
>DH: How are you, Jerry?
>JH: Real good, sir, and yourself?
>DH: Fine.
>JH: Fantastic.  I guess it was about the end of June that we last
>talked.  What has happened since then?
>DH: Well, of course, we've been busy putting our story together, and
>working on a Senate report that we intend to deliver to the Senate
>Judiciary Committee next week.  Basically we have busy completing that
>and have all of our information developed, and our story is expected
>to be completed by the end of this week.  I heard you mention the
>broadcast date -- that's going to be September 19th.  It'll be a
>two-hour show and I think probably 8:00 Eastern time.  It will air. .
>.of course, hopefully we will have heard something from the Senate by
>that time.  We've been in touch, I have, back and forth, almost daily,
>with different members of Congress and people in Washington that
>basically want to hear the story, and I think that we're going to get
>something done. . . I feel confident with the talks that I've had with
>people in Washington.
>JH: All right, now the last we talked, I believe the following day,
>the next day, Christina was supposed to go to the compound, and I
>believe she had a court order, or was hoping to have a court order,
>that would allow her in to look at some -- I want to say some barrels
>or some containers?
>DH: That's correct.  We went to Waco, McClellan County Court.  We did
>present evidence that we had that possibly criminal acts had been done
>in the State of Texas by the Justice Department.  We presented that to
>Judge McDonald in McClellan County over the objections of the state
>attorney there and we did prevail.  He certainly gave us entrance to
>the complex there.  We did gather information that we felt was needed.
>We used an arson expert from Oklahoma, and he basically did his
>investigation.  We also took a criminal investigator in with us and
>obtained information.
>    Also at that time we did, as I recall they recovered remains of
>two other bodies, and of course those were turned over to the coroner
>JH: Let me stop you stop you just a minute.  You mean there were still
>the remains of two bodies at the scene, and this is now into the
>beginning of July of this year?
>DH: That is true.  There are still bodies, parts of bodies or parts of
>remains still there.  People that were working there, being as we had
>the control of the complex, we still are receiving some of the
>JH: Let me get this straight.  April 19, 1993, was the fire and the
>end of the Mt. Carmel church.  We were told that all of the bodies and
>all of the remains had been removed and autopsies had been performed
>on most if not all of them shortly thereafter.  Now you're telling me
>that you and/or your daughter and/or a news crew, an investigative
>crew along with an arson detective, entered that compound with a court
>order in July of this year, one year and two months after the fact,
>and there were still unrec overed bodies?
>DH: They're not total bodies, Jerry.  They're remains that have been
>burned up, bones, such as that, and pelvic areas.  That basically is
>what we found.  Even as late as two weeks ago, our company -- some of
>the remains were being sent to us -- our criminal investigator has
>taken control of those, and we intend to bury them here in Oklahoma.
>JH: Let me ask you to hold just a moment as we take a break.
>JH: Ladies and gentlemen, again we thank you for allowing us to be
>with you this evening.  Conferenced in is David Hall, General Manager
>of KPOC television, Ponca City, Oklahoma, the television station that
>had been doing a good bit of investigative work in the area of Waco.
>On September 19th of this year, they will be airing a two-hour program
>on that.  Mr. Hall has been in touch with numerous members of Congress
>and officials in Washington, DC.  If you are just joining us, we found
>out just before the break that while the Waco tragedy climaxed on
>April 19th of last year, a year and two months later at the beginning
>of July of this year, entering that compound with a court order, an
>investigative team from KPOC along with other individuals accompanying
>them, found at least partial human remains still on scene.  Mr. Hall,
>could you tell, could any of your experts tell, were the remains of
>adults or children?
>DH: We think that part of them were children and possibly two adults
>thus far.  That's what we know.  We've had doctors look at what we
>have here and we have the partial remains of a child here, and some
>other, possibly adult bones, here also.
>JH: Sir, that's awfully sloppy of the United States government.
>DH: Well, it's terrible.  It's horrendous.  Of course the whole thing
>-- we now have a full picture of what happened at Waco.  You know, we
>hired experts to, basically chemists. . .we've had a report from Dr.
>George Ulich [sp?] who's a professor at Price University in Utah.  We
>know exactly what happened to the people today.  I don't know if we
>got into that area before when we talked, about the breakdown of the
>CS gas. . .
>JH: To the best of my recollection, in the breakdown of the CS, in the
>propellant agent that was used, in the fire, etc., there was the
>manufacture in kind of a natural response to all these elements, a
>natural manufacture of cyanide gas, is that correct?
>DH: That's correct.  These people had much. . .many of them had lethal
>doses of cyanide and others had incapacitating doses of cyanide.  Ten
>parts per million, anything above that is incapacitating.  Two hundred
>parts per million of cyanide is basically dead.  Some of these people
>had well within the realm of being dead.  What is confusing is how
>they have bullet holes in them.  That has bothered pathologists here,
>and two doctors that we've had look at them.  We're not real sure what
>happened there, and we can't make any statements because we don't
>JH: You mentioned a moment ago that you took an arson investigator
>with you.  I know that no doubt you'll be mentioning that on the 19th
>on the program and I don't wish to ask you to divulge anything that
>you would wish to hold until then, but can you give us an
>investigation as to what the arson investigator found out?
>DH: Well, we found that. . .we have video that has been furnished to
>us by a station in Texas that we're analyzing, it's the start of it.
>We know for a fact that the fire did not start where Paul Gray, the
>arson investigator that was hired by the ATF, stated that it was.  We
>have that plainly on FBI video and also 35 millimeter shots.  We know
>where the fire started, and we also have, we've determined basically
>that probably. . .it would be totally a guess on my part at this time,
>but in talking with our investigator, we feel like a polytechnic, I
>think, device was used to start that fire.  And it was started it
>three locations.  The fire started before . . .we have some other
>video that shows the fire started before the time frame in which they
>said it was.
>JH: Can you tell if the fire was started internally or externally?
>DH: We feel. . .well, the fire was certainly started on the inside,
>but not by the Davidians.  Of course that would be totally against
>their religion.  The FBI even states that on videotape.  Bob Ricks
>says that this would bound these people for hell eternal, so they're
>not going to do this, and we know that.  Another interesting thing was
>that we had talked last week to the state fire marshall's office at
>Austin, Texas.  His people had gone out to investigate that fire and
>they turned them away.  I guess at that time they brought Paul Gray in
>who was a former ATF agent.  His wife is presently employed by the
>ATF, so that was the "independent" investigation that the government
>did.  That will also be noted in our report.  Our arson investigator
>totally disagrees with how the fire started and what he states, so I
>think we put his report to rest and started looking for really what
>happened there.  We do now have some officials that are ready to come
>forward that have contacted us in the last two weeks and tell the
>story to the Senate, and we intend to march those people before the
>Senate.  For those reasons we have people that were involved that are
>now ready to talk and tell the truth, and we believe that something is
>going to happen.   I don't think this can be pushed under the rug any
>further.  Also it might be interesting to note that beyond our program
>we've been in touch with other people that also have programs going
>tomorrow night that we have furnished video for and information, and
>those programs will air tomorrow evening on A&E Network and ABC, and
>they're going to be also critical of the government's handling of
>JH: We're going to take a break, but when we come back in just a
>minute, you have answered part of the question, but if I might allow
>you to think about it for a couple of minutes. . .in the aftermath,
>here we are a year and a couple of months later, has anyone come
>forward, or did you find anyone who has now admitted after the fact,
>"We really messed up.  We were too strong in what we did or the wrong
>orders were given" . . .anything along that line.
>JH: We're talking with David Hall, General Manager of KPOC television
>in Ponca City, Oklahoma, and one of his crews from the television
>station has been working on an update on Waco that is going to be
>aired on the 19th of September.  Before the break, the question, has
>in the aftermath -- here we are a little over a year and two months
>later -- has anyone come forward and said, "We really messed up.  We
>were given the wrong orders, we issued the wrong orders, we followed
>the wrong orders, the government was really out to get those folks" --
>anything along that line?
>DH: We have two people that have come forward, both officials, and
>both have talked with myself and another investigator and one
>investigator in Washington.  These people have enlightened us very
>much on what happened at Waco, why it happened, and are willing to go
>before the Senate.  At this time I have to keep their names quiet, but
>they certainly intend to go before the Senate and the information that
>they are armed with -- they were participants -- and will, I think
>totally discredit the trial at Waco, Texas, before Judge Walter Smith.
>The attorneys there, the U.S. attorneys as well as the ATF and the
>FBI, they're very much involved, these people were, at high levels.
>JH: Can you tell us, without divulging their position or their
>occupation or anything along that line, can you tell us what area of
>conflict there would be between what the government has said and what
>these folks might be indicating?
>DH: Well, what they're going to say, I think, basically the
>information they're going to give will be totally shoring up what we
>have said all along, plus other plans that were laid aside that would
>have saved the people and these plans were laid aside with the intent
>of gassing these people.  The interesting thing about this CS gas, in
>our report from Dr. George Ulich, he tells us that 40 cannisters from
>a 40 millimeter gun, or whatever it is they shoot them with into the
>building, would have produced sufficient amount cyanide under the
>conditions to actually incapacitate these people. . .which would have
>been about a quart.  So we know that they used ten to thirty 55-gallon
>drums of this.  Now, I don't know if I made the statement before, but
>the chemical company that manufactures says that never in the history
>of their company has this chemical ever been used or abused in this
>manner, and it is totally not to be used inside a building.  So they
>fortified [testified?] that they knew all these things and they took
>that chance and the kids were not of any concern at the time when they
>did this.  Their intent was to bring this building down and bring this
>thing to an end, regardless of the outcome.
>JH: I've just done some quick math here.  You're saying that one quart
>would have been sufficient.  From one 55-gallon drum, of course we
>know there would be 220 quarts.  So we know that somewhere between
>2,200 times and 6,600 times than was necessary was used.
>DH: Exactly.  That's the overwhelming thing about the whole thing.
>You know, their S.W.A.T. manual -- we have obtained a copy of it --
>and in it, it tells them not to use this CS gas inside a complex.
>It's totally for riot control out in the open air.  It tells all the
>things that we have stated that could happen if it's used inside, and
>of course all those things did happen.
>JH: So what we have is a situation where there could only be three
>options.  One, somebody deliberately chose to go against procedure and
>use a deadly gas inside.  Two, someone was incompetent to make the
>decision.  Three, someone really messed up.  In either instance
>there's negligence, isn't there?
>DH: There's negligence, no question about it, and I think it borders
>along the lines of homicide operating under the color of law.  We had
>a vigilante group out there, in my estimation.
>JH: Mr. Hall, let me ask you to hold right there, and we'll come back
>in a couple of minutes.
>JH: If you are just joining us, our guest is David Hall.  Mr. Hall is
>the general manager of KPOC television in Ponca City, Oklahoma, and we
>are talking about the work that KPOC has done in the aftermath of the
>Waco tragedy.  Further investigation, and what the outcome has been,
>and of course they will be telecasting the program on September 19th,
>a two-hour program about that.  Mr. Hall, to the best of my
>recollection, there were quite a few discrepancies that your team had
>found between what really happened, or what the evidence is showing
>happened, and what the federal government had told us all along, or
>the government spokesman, Mr. Ricks or whomever it might have been.
>Would that be accurate?
>DH: That's exactly right.  All throught that siege, what we were being
>told I would have to say they were dishonest at the very best, and of
>course going back over it now we find the things that actually did
>happen, and they made every effort in the world to cover that up.
>There also, we feel like, Texas state officials that should certainly
>be indicted over the deaths of these children.  There's no person that
>can tell me these children were guilty of anything.  Did they deserve
>to be shot at, cyanided and burned?  No, I don't think so.  These kids
>were ten years old and under -- seventeen of them out there -- at the
>hands of the government . . .men that knew well, and you asked about
>the three options that they had. . .they had many, many options that
>they could have taken to avert the situation.  The act there was
>deliberate to put this cyanide in there or put this CS gas which
>turned to cyanide and the potency of that would be -- people back east
>and probably some of the areas in the Appalachians would know -- the
>potency of that was like coal dust.  It's compared in Dr. George
>Ulich's report to us as being the potency of coal dust, what it will
>do.  The structure, the way it was ventilated, was an actual act to
>give a backdraft so that you would create a flash fire.  Again, this
>with chemistry was done many, many times in tests of these kinds of
>things to create flash fires, explosions, things like that, and that's
>in the field of kinetics.
>JH: All right, the government would treat us as though maybe we just
>fell off a turnip truck on the way into town.  They told us that they
>had nothing to do with the fire.  They told us that the fire was
>started by Branch Davidians on the inside, and yet if we use just a
>little bit of common sense -- just a little bit -- 
>DH: That's all it takes.
>JH: -- they denied access for about 30 minutes or so, or there was a
>period of about 30 minutes once the fire broke out before the fire
>companies were called, and they did not have any on-scene, in fact had
>cancelled them.  It's my understanding that they had called area
>hospitals, either the morning of or the previous day and had asked
>specifically, "How are you equipped to handle burn victims and how
>many can you handle?".  Now this was before the fire.  If we use a
>little bit of common sense, first question, is that correct.
>Secondly, if we use a little bit of common sense, do they really think
>we're foolish enough to believe that this was started by the Davidians
>or that it was an accident when they did not allow fire trucks, when
>they did not allow someone to be on hand to protect against fire and
>when they called about treatment of fire victims?
>DH: The answers to the statement you made are absolutely correct.
>They did call Parkland Memorial Hospital.  We have an interview with
>the supervisor in the burn unit who they talked with that morning and
>she plainly states in our interview with her, which is on videotape,
>that they called her at 5:55 wanting to know about beds available in
>the burn unit and helicopters . . .what size helicopters could land on
>the pad, which is on top of the building.  This was well four or five
>hours before the fire ever started.  Getting to the point where the
>fire trucks come out -- the fire trucks come out thirty minutes into
>the fire like you stated.  They then held the fire trucks thirty
>minutes. . .
>JH: And by that time it was too late.
>DH: Well, the building had already burned.  But there was a reason for
>that.  The reason being George Ulich, again, our chemistry professor,
>in his report to the Senate, said it was a good idea on the
>government's part.  Had they have shot water on that flaming inferno,
>it would have caused a hydrogen cyanide cloud, a steam cloud, which
>could have drifted over many miles around, and you take three or four
>breaths of it and you're down.  So they knew what they were doing.
>There's no question but they knew what'd happen.  I don't think
>there's any rebuttal to that.  All of the acts that they did on that
>day goes. . .it falls right in line with their own manuals.  So they
>made the thing happen, and made it at best look like an accident,
>which we know today it was not an accident.
>JH: All right, I'm going to assume that probably in the course of
>getting the information together for your project, for your
>documentary or your special, that you probably interviewed some Texas
>officials, and maybe U.S. government officials who had a direct role
>in that -- very probably you have confronted them with a good bit of
>the information which you have subsequently found out. . .did they
>come clean or did they still say, "Oh no, we did the right thing, we
>did what had to be done, and we're proud of what we did."?
>DH: No, I don't have them telling me that today.  Early on when we
>started, Christina had that, but she knew something was afoul.  At
>that time they were basically going with the same thing, that the
>Davidians had started the fire.  But again, even common sense here,
>they knew what was going on.  They had listening devices, they had
>small cameras inserted into the walls, they knew everything that was
>going on inside the compound.  Many, many times they stated that they
>were using coal oil lanterns in there.  So with those tanks running
>back and forth as battering rams, even if we give them this and say it
>was an accident, they knew exactly what they were doing.  It was
>negligence on their part to go ahead and shoot the CS in, knowing how
>flammable it was, knowing it would create cyanide, knowing they had
>flame in there.  We don't believe that the coal oil lamps started the
>fire.  We think that we have videotape that shows totally different
>than that.  Again, that has been supplied to us by a Texas station.
>JH: I read a report, and maybe you can confirm this, we knew that they
>had brought in, the BATF and marshall, the FBI, the federal
>authorities, we know they had brought in the surveillance aircraft
>from England.  I read a report on that particular aircraft that was
>recently declassified, and according to the information I have, not
>only could they pinpoint the whereabouts of the individuals inside
>through infrared, etc., that this aircraft, flying high overhead, had
>a rather unique capability to actually hear what was going on inside.
>Now we also know of course they had implanted into the walls and
>structure some microphones, too, and some cameras, but they used some
>rather sophisticated equipment that heretofore no one has heard
>anything about.  There was some concern that a lot of the things that
>were used were of military make, military manufacture, or of military
>preference, let's say -- in violation of the Posse Comitatus law. We
>know that Ann Richards ["Ma" Richards, Governor of Texas] provided
>some National Guard helicopters.  Originally it's our understanding
>that she was told that there was a drug lab in the church or in the
>complex.  Later of course we found that obviously to be false, and yet
>she never withdrew the hardware.  Have you been able to find out
>anything about the use of military and military equipment?  We heard
>the story that possibly Delta Force people were there.  We've heard
>that possibly individuals from either SEAL teams or Ranger teams were
>there.  A lot of it is rumor perhaps, but let's get into that when we
>come back.
>JH: David Hall is with us this evening, ladies and gentlemen.  Mr.
>Hall, any information on why members of the military -- we do
>understand, as a matter of fact, please confirm or if you have found
>otherwise, shoot it down -- that there certainly was contact with
>Delta Force members or planning people or possibly even Delta Force
>people on the scene.
>DH: I'm going to tell you -- you had two questions, first the
>airplane.  That airplane I'm not real sure about the capabilities of
>the plane.  I do know that they used that to take infrared pictures,
>which were vital at the trial.  We now have witnesses and people that
>actually witnessed this tape being edited by the U.S. government
>before it was presented to the trial, as well as the audio tapes that
>were used for surveillanced which would be worth noting.
>JH: So they did edit the tapes before they presented them.  Now did
>they edit them for brevity, or did they edit them for content?
>DH: They edited them for content.  The funny thing was that right
>after the trial, it was discovered that four minutes 40 seconds was
>missing out of that infrared tape.
>JH: That's the period of time that the fire started?
>DH: Exactly.  And now we can prove that they did this.  We also have a
>signature on a document from Ray Young [sp?] admitting that they had
>lost four minutes 40 seconds of that tape.
>JH: Lost, quote unquote or lost deliberately or. . .
>DH: Lost quote unquote.
>JH: Okay.
>DH: How do you lose, you know, four minutes 40 seconds?  It's cut,
>just cut out.  And so that much we know about the plane, and that was
>a British airplane.  Navy SEALS certainly were there, we have firemen
>at TSDC [?] that tell us they were there.  Of course they were there
>all the time.  The intelligence network of several countries was
>there.  I had no understanding why they would be there.  Even our own
>Army intelligence was there.  Of course, the Navy SEALS, there was
>Delta Force people were there.
>JH: Isn't that against the law, sir?
>DH: It's against the law to use the military in a police action.  We
>know that fifteen military Ft. Hood people were used there.  We know
>that the Abrams tank came from the U.S. military.  That by Major
>O'Rourke [sp?] of Ft. Hood, Texas said that on our tape.
>JH: Now the FBI, and the government said their people handled the
>equipment.  Their people were just there as advisors, thereby skirting
>the Posse Comitatus.  Is that true?  Were they there as advisors?
>DH: They were there as workers.
>JH: They were hands on?
>DH: They were hands on.  We have one helicopter pilot we've talked
>with who was active reserve that was reactivated back and assigned to
>Ft. Hood and assigned to that particular job.  So they were involved
>more than the FBI would lead you to believe.  So we have the U.S.
>military in a police action against the citizens of the United States,
>which, to me, violates the Constitution of the United States.  They
>can argue all they want, but I take the Constitution to mean exactly
>what it says, and we don't deviate from that, and I get scared when
>that happens.
>JH: Oh, absolutely.
>DH: And I think that many, many people around the United States should
>be scared.  When you get the military involved, well, what happens is
>Waco, and if we allow those things to go unheeded, unattended, so to
>speak, without outcry, it's going to happen more and more and more.
>The government has accellerated its attacks against any Christian,
>religious group, whatever it might be.  We've seen that happen over
>the years, back when they started taking prayer out of schools, and
>it's just got worse.  We're to this point now, so it's waking up -- I
>know I've woke up a lot in the last year.  I thought we had a good
>government.  I still say we have a good government, but we've got some
>bad people we have to eradicate and that's my thinking on that.  Also
>there was the CIA, and what their involvement was we don't know.  I
>think that the Congress or Senate -- it's going to take somebody with
>the power of the law behind them.  Honest men to sort this thing out
>and find out why all these people were involved.
>JH: Bottom line question for this segment.  From what you have found,
>from the people you have talked with, from the evidence you have
>gathered, from the tapes -- the video tapes and audio tapes you have
>seen and heard -- from no doubt the data you have read and such, can
>you tell me, was it a federal official/field commander, a commander of
>the U.S. military who was on-scene, or the Attorney General of the
>United States who decided to go ahead and call the shot which
>basically ended up killing the kids?
>DH: We're still bouncing that around amongst ourselves and among three
>Congressmen as to what knowledge she [Attorney General Janet Reno] had
>of the CS gas.  We know the field commanders belong in jail.  We know
>that.  They knew that -- Saraman [sp?], Royster [sp?], Bob Ricks,
>those people I intend to, if it's within my power, to see those people
>in jail -- Higgins -- we've found now that some of these people that
>they've put off with retirement or with pay have now went back to work
>and are drawing full pay and just sitting around twiddling their
>thumbs.  These people certainly that were put off with pay certainly
>belong in jail, and I believe that Bob Ricks belongs in jail.  I'll
>state that out plainly and some of the ATF there's no question that
>they -- the field commanders -- I don't believe that the man out there
>in the field really realized what he was doing.  I think that they
>went out on a job and probably the ATF in this case at the very first
>was wrong, but it was even worse on day 51 -- that was, to me, they
>have given law enforcement the blackest eye in the history of this
>country, this group of men down there.
>JH: Let me ask you to hold it there, sir, as we take a break.
>JH: Next hour we'll be taking your calls.  Mr. Hall has graciously
>agreed to be with us next hour to answer questions you might have.
>Sir, you mentioned a moment ago that you probably had had a little bit
>of a change of mind about our government.  Let me explore that just a
>little bit more.  We know that every year the United States State
>Department comes out with a list of nations that violate human rights,
>and those are nations that we are not supposed to be full trading
>partners with, or at least we're supposed to do what we can to try to
>correct that.  One of the nations on the list was Mexico, and one of
>the reasons Mexico was on there was because the government sometimes
>is rather severe on its citizens.  Sometimes they will incarcerate
>them without provocation, sometimes they will torture them, and
>sometimes they will kill them.  Were the human rights violations of
>Mexico any different, or the human rights violations of China -- the
>people who were killed in Tienanmen Square, or in the aftermath of
>that, who were executed -- are those human rights violations any
>different than what our government did in Waco in your estimation,
>now, after looking at the evidence?
>DH: You know, I'm going to have to say probably not at all.  No
>different at all.  Worse.  We've been brought up different as
>Americans, you know, to stand up for human rights, and these men down
>there were brought up just like you and I were, in God and country,
>and to do those atrocities and . . .you know, while this was going on
>on the 19th, I had to think about this, our president was dedicating a
>monument in Washington, DC to the Holocaust victims at the same time
>he was burning up these people in Waco, Texas, on that very day.  I
>don't know if people were aware of that or not.  But to me, it was
>almost genocide here, and I would call it genocide.  I'm sick to death
>of this type of action by our government.  I wasn't privy to
>information a year ago that I am today, and so I'm taking totally a
>different look at government.  I'm investigating government anywhere I
>see wrongdoing, and I'll bring it out, be it local or state or
>federal.  I feel like we're under a threat from the government.  It's
>got too big, and when they turn on the people that way, it's time for
>the people to act.  I think we have to do that with due process, but I
>think that they've excited enough people where, the circles that I've
>been in in the last six months tells me that there's an army of people
>out there, probably a bigger army of people that are fed up with
>government and these people are armed, and that scares me also.  I
>don't own a gun, but I certainly believe that every citizen has a
>right to own a gun and this almost puts me in a position of believing
>that a person ought to buy one if they don't own one.  Back in 1938,
>Hitler started disarming the people and what we had was was genocide
>and the Holocaust, and we're just seeing history repeat itself, and
>we're just sitting here watching it happen.  We're going down to buy
>our new cars, we're going to the movies, we're going there, going
>here, just letting all these things happen.
>[The original assault on the compound was 50 years to the day after
>the Nazis stormed the Jews in the ghettos in the same fashion -- both
>were wearing the black helmets, too.  Some of the Jews had guns and
>took out a few Nazis, which is why the Nazis used the gas and flooded
>the sewers.  The Jews formed a "militia"!]
>JH: Not only sir, not only did the president on that same day dedicate
>the Holocaust museum, but almost to the hour 218 years, on the day 51
>of Waco, on that April 19th morning of 1775, some farmers met some
>Redcoats at a bridge near Lexington and Concord, and the action to
>make sure that we would live free, the action to make sure that we
>would in fact be a free and independent Nation with liberty for all of
>us began.  Well. 218 years later, we know what happened.  Stay with us
>ladies and gentlemen.  We'll be back next hour with your calls.
>JH: Again, ladies and gentlemen, we welcome you to "Washington On
>Trial" from the Peoples' Radio Network.  Hello, America.  I'm Jerry
>Hughes, and thank you for joining us this evening.  Our guest this
>evening ladies and gentlemen is Mr. David Hall.  Mr. Hall is the
>General Manager of KPOC television in Ponca City, Oklahoma, a
>television station that has done a tremendous amount of investigative
>work and has produced a two-hour program on Waco, what really
>happened.  A two-hour program that will be airing on the 19th of
>September.  Our lines are open this evening, toll-free across the
>United States of America at 1-800-TALK-YES, 1-800-825-5937.  When you
>dial that number, you're going to reach our satellite uplink facility
>which is inside the turn-of-the-century Telford Hotel, on the banks of
>the Suwannee River in White Springs, Florida.  Jay Corley, our
>producer, who, as always is doing an excellent job will take your call
>this evening, and he'll make the necessary connection so that we can
>get on the air tonight.  Mr. Hall, are you ready to take some calls
>from folks across the country?
>DH: Sure.
>JH: Let's go to Orangeburg, South Carolina.  Randy, good evening.
>XX: How are you doing, Jerry?
>JH: All right, sir, and yourself?
>XX: Fine.  I enjoy your show.
>JH: Thank you.
>XX: Mr. Hall, I want to know what you all heard about Linda Thompson
>[Linda is planning a "march" on Washington during the second week of
>September.  It is supposed to consist of armed members of the Militia.
>The object is to convince members of Congress that they must uphold
>the Oath they took to protect and defend the Constitution of the
>United States, and to arrest them if they don't.  The group will also
>demand, among other things, repeal of NAFTA, the Brady Law (already
>challenged in several court cases and on its way out), and an
>investigation into Waco.  Although agreeing in principle, most
>populist groups distance themselves from her methods.  They feel an
>armed group will create a bloodbath and increased (and immediate)
>disarming of the populace.
>She is also the main force behind the most popular videotapes on Waco.
>Although there are some small errors (the "flamethrowing tank" for
>instance), 99.99% of the facts on the tape are accurate.]
>[The "march" was called off, and Linda is pretty much discredited by
>just about everybody.]
>DH: I haven't heard anything about Linda Thompson.  I don't really
>know. . . I talked with Linda once or twice.  I don't know Linda very
>XX: I was calling to try to learn. . .I know the network used to say
>the video she had out was pretty good, and it may be.  But I'm afraid
>that this armed march she's calling for on Washington is something
>that's going to get a lot of people in trouble.  I don't think it's
>the right move for the time yet.
>JH: Randy, I certainly agree with you.  I'm sure Mr. Hall would agree.
>In fact, I think any sensible American -- and I mean not to slight
>anyone by that, it's my opinion -- but you're absolutely right.  It is
>not the thing to do.  There are a lot of things we could still do,
>hoping and praying that that day will never come.
>XX: That's right.
>JH: As we mentioned a moment ago, it was 218 years when the Mt. Carmel
>fire began, 218 years previous to that, at about the same time of the
>day, the men at Lexington and Concord, the farmers of America, met the
>British.  The British said, "Give us your guns."  Until that time, no
>one in America had pretty well bothered anybody in the sense of a
>violent fashion.  We have not reached anything near that, and again I
>hope that certainly all good common-sense folks will work within the
>system to change the system, because I still believe that it can be
>done.  Sir, I appreciate your taking the time to call.
>XX: I've heard you say that before, and I agree with you, and I just
>wanted people out there that will listen, not to make this move.  It
>is not the time to make this move yet.  The day might come, but I
>don't think as yet.
>JH: I agree with you, sir.  Hopefully it will never come, but if it

Paul Andrew Mitchell, Sui Juris      : Counselor at Law, federal witness 01
B.A.: Political Science, UCLA;   M.S.: Public Administration, U.C.Irvine 02
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